Subject: Possible RGB solution

From: "Tony Knerr" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 22:43:15 -0000

Hey, I just stumbled on this by chance. Go to Ebay and search for
"sony pvm". Apparently Sony made monitors 10-15 years ago for the 
medical field, and a good many of them have RGB Composite Sync inputs.
A little research indicates the correct scan rates for our 9938/9958
equipped devices. Like anything else, some of them are priced reasonably
and some are outrageous. Sizes range from 5" to 25".

It looks to me that they'll work for our purposes, but I'm curious as 
to if anyone has ever actually tried connecting up one of these animals 
to a Geneve or 80 column card? Whattayathink?

Tony

---

From: "richxb" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 02:03:19 -0000

> to a Geneve or 80 column card? Whattayathink?
Yea I had a SOB and created my own cable for a RXB Composite Sync to 3 different monitors, it is easy you put a volume control on it (one from Radio Shack) and just turn it till it till the picture of the monitor comes into focus. I used it on several. I do not know electronics just made it according to SOB instructions.

---

From: Tony Knerr <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 07:12:20 -0400

Are you saying you actually connected the TIM device (SOB was part of 
the TIM package) to a Sony PVM monitor successfully?
Or was it just 3 different monitors?

Tony

On 3/14/2011 10:03 PM, richxb wrote:
>
> Yea I had a SOB and created my own cable for a RXB Composite Sync to 3 
> different monitors, it is easy you put a volume control on it (one 
> from Radio Shack) and just turn it till it till the picture of the 
> monitor comes into focus. I used it on several. I do not know 
> electronics just made it according to SOB instructions.
>
> _

---

From: Marc Hull <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 04:14:08 -0700 (PDT)

I think you would make a perfect test subject ;-)   Hurry every chance you get.  My 1084 is inches from death.....  Seriously a 25 inch RGB would be pretty cool, I hope it works.

--- On Mon, 3/14/11, Tony Knerr <[email-masked]> wrote:

From: Tony Knerr <[email-masked]>
Subject: [TI994A] Possible RGB solution
To: [email-masked]
Date: Monday, March 14, 2011, 5:43 PM

  

Tony

---

From: Marc Hull <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 14:08:25 -0700 (PDT)

Any more on this Tony ?

 

    

Tony

---

From: "Tony Knerr" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 22:09:49 -0000

Well, I was thinking that you could buy the 3 monitors in this buy it now listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/3-SONY-PVM-20N2U-20-Trinitron-Color-Tube-Monitors-/220754723874?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336601c422

You could keep one, send one to me, and send the other one to Richard.
It DOES say "Free shipping".

Between the 3 of us, we could probably figure out how to get them to 
work. I'll start working on a cable right away, I just need the BNC
plugs. Thanks for being so generous in your offer to help. ;)

Tony

---

From: Marc Hull <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 16:01:26 -0700 (PDT)

Well hell why not.  Shipping is free.  It's a good deal provided you bring the Vaseline ;-)

--- On Tue, 3/15/11, Tony Knerr <[email-masked]> wrote:

From: Tony Knerr <[email-masked]>
Subject: [TI994A] Re: Possible RGB solution
To: [email-masked]
Date: Tuesday, March 15, 2011, 5:09 PM

  

Tony 

--- In [email-masked], Marc Hull <marc.hull@...> wrote:

---

From: Owen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 19:10:38 -0400

I've got a very nice older NEC monitor that works brilliantly... I'm not sure if it is the type that you guys are needing, but I'd be happy to part with it if a suitable replacement could be found.  

Firebrandmusic.net

---

From: Tony Knerr <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 19:49:13 -0400

Thanks, Owen.

That's very generous. But the idea is to move on from 'older'. The RGB 
monitors that
most of us are using that work with our TI 80 column systems/Geneves are 
from the era
of about '85 to '90.

That puts them in the age group of about 25 years. That's old for a 
monitor and they
are rapidly dying. The Sony PVM series of monitors I discovered were 
probably built
from about '95 to '05 (I'm just guessing here). So that at least gives 
us a 10 year extension,
maybe even more, these things look like they're built like tanks, they 
should mate up nicely
with a Pbox. ;)

Tongue-in-cheek barbs with Marc aside, we should find out if this is a 
worthwhile alternative,
and I'll probably be the guinea pig. But I'm going to find one at a 
really good price first, and
maybe close enough to pick up so I don't have to pay shipping.

Tony

On 3/15/2011 7:10 PM, Owen wrote:
> I've got a very nice older NEC monitor that works brilliantly... I'm 
> not sure if it is the type that you guys are needing, but I'd be happy 
> to part with it if a suitable replacement could be found.
>
>
>
> Firebrandmusic.net <http://Firebrandmusic.net>
>
>

---

From: Owen <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 20:48:55 -0400

I see. I believe this monitor is an '87 model.  Good luck with your search.  :)

Firebrandmusic.net

On Mar 15, 2011, at 7:49 PM, Tony Knerr <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Thanks, Owen.
> 
> That's very generous. But the idea is to move on from 'older'. The RGB monitors that 
> most of us are using that work with our TI 80 column systems/Geneves are from the era
> of about '85 to '90.
> 
> That puts them in the age group of about 25 years. That's old for a monitor and they
> are rapidly dying. The Sony PVM series of monitors I discovered were probably built 
> from about '95 to '05 (I'm just guessing here). So that at least gives us a 10 year extension,
> maybe even more, these things look like they're built like tanks, they should mate up nicely
> with a Pbox. ;) 
> 
> Tongue-in-cheek barbs with Marc aside, we should find out if this is a worthwhile alternative,
> and I'll probably be the guinea pig. But I'm going to find one at a really good price first, and

---

From: "richxb" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 02:09:47 -0000

--- In [email-masked], Tony Knerr <tonyknerr@...> wrote:
>Yea the TIM came with a print out on how to make a cable and and I added the parts into the end conector and ran a couple of wires out to a Volume control and when you turned the knob you could adjust to the monitor. It may have been the frequency or the Vsync I do not know.

---

From: Marc Hull <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 05:21:36 -0700 (PDT)

Not knowing here.....

Hopefully the old endoscopy monitors will work out.  I didn't quite understand rich's post about the cable with the pot on it.  Is that a color thing ?

If the  new source doesn't work out then how big a pita is it to convert analog RGB to TTL RGB  or is that the pretty much the same as you were doing with the scan converters ?

From: Tony Knerr <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [TI994A] Re: Possible RGB solution
To: [email-masked]
Date: Tuesday, March 15, 2011, 6:49 PM

  

      

    Thanks, Owen.

    That's very generous. But the idea is to move on from 'older'. The
    RGB monitors that 

    most of us are using that work with our TI 80 column systems/Geneves
    are from the era

    of about '85 to '90.

    from about '95 to '05 (I'm just guessing here). So that at least
    gives us a 10 year extension,

    maybe even more, these things look like they're built like tanks,
    they should mate up nicely

    with a Pbox. ;) 

    Tongue-in-cheek barbs with Marc aside, we should find out if this is
    a worthwhile alternative,

    Tony 

      
          
            I've got a very nice older NEC monitor that works
              brilliantly... I'm not sure if it is the type that you
              guys are needing, but I'd be happy to part with it if a
              suitable replacement could be found.  

              

              Firebrandmusic.net

---

From: Tony Knerr <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:57:41 -0400

There's a couple of things you could do with pots on an RGB signal. You 
could put them on the color lines to cut down on the signal and not
over-saturate the monitor or converter device you are using. In my case 
I used 3 pots with the Neobitz board. But that doesn't apply to
just one pot on a cable. My best guess is that it would be used with a  
Sync-on-Green monitor on the Sync line in order to prevent over-driving or
otherwise causing a problem with the green signal. That would rule out 
usage with the Sony PVM monitor, though, since it's got a separate
composite sync input. So I'm not understanding the post very well, either.

I'm not sure about converting Analog to TTL or vice-versa, but I know 
some monitors do it internally. I've read some info on the web about
surgery on monitors to remove the converter board to get the monitor to 
accept the opposite kind of signal, but that's all I know on the
subject. The Neobitz scan converter board I was fooling around with 
converts analog RGB to Svideo and Component outputs. Component
inputs are the ones on newer TVs that have red, green, and blue phone 
jacks as their connections. They are NOT, however, RGB inputs.
They are correctly called YPbPr signals. The converter ended up working 
ok, but I'd rather have something that rivals the clarity of an
original RGB monitor.

I'll let you know, but it may take a little while...

Tony

On 3/16/2011 8:21 AM, Marc Hull wrote:
>
> Not knowing here.....
>
> Hopefully the old endoscopy monitors will work out.  I didn't quite 
> understand rich's post about the cable with the pot on it.  Is that a 
> color thing ?
>
> If the  new source doesn't work out then how big a pita is it to 
> convert analog RGB to TTL RGB  or is that the pretty much the same as 
> you were doing with the scan converters ?
>
>
>

---

From: tursi <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:22:08 -0700 (PDT)

> inputs are the ones on newer TVs that have red, green, and blue phone jacks
> as their connections. They are NOT, however, RGB inputs.
> They are correctly called YPbPr signals. The converter ended up working ok,
> but I'd rather have something that rivals the clarity of an
> original RGB monitor.

I wonder if it might be worth investigating UK monitors? When it comes to 
RGB, there's no PAL/NTSC issue to worry about, and many devices with SCART 
connectors (apparently) support RGB. Since the rest of the SCART signals 
are also 15khz(ish), and since these monitors usually also support our 
60hz scan rate, perhaps there are some more modern options available 
overseas.

Getting them HERE is a different issue, of course, but seeing what is 
available may open up options.

An alternative, of course, is that some displays can be modified. For 
instance, if you can get your hands on the once very popular (and now 
usually sold very cheap) PS-One LCD screen, it supports RGB input and is a 
15Khz display. It is, though, very small. A little research might well 
turn up larger LCD televisions that also support RGB with a little 
hacking, and I would expect this is the best angle to follow.

Also make sure you check the arcade community. As was recently noted, most 
classic arcade games need a 15khz RGB monitor, and they are generally 
quite creative in finding solutions. Other systems like the Amiga and 
Atari ST are also 15khz RGB, so see what those communities are doing. 
(Most seem to be using scan doublers, but some don't like the lag that 
adds).

Doing my own quick search... this list in Japanese was linked from the 
x68000 forums as being compatible 15khz RGB displays - the links may be 
worthwhile: http://x68k.net/nagai/pukiwiki/index.php?X680x0%2Fdisplay

In this thread, a fellow tried his 15khz Amiga on a VGA LCD panel, and it 
DID sync correctly. (It displayed a warning, though, but if we can find a 
panel that works maybe we can work out how to kill the warning): 
http://www.amiga.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-29502.html

A friend of mine in Australia is a huge RGB fan and has done a lot of 
hacking to make RGB work on his old consoles (with excellent 
documentation)... unfortunately his servers are offline right now so we 
can't check what he has for the other end - hooking it up to something. 
But keep an eye for the nfg.2y.net domain to come back up.

---

From: Owen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 18:36:45 -0400

Is there any reason a regular 10" flat screen with RCA inputs would NOT work with a STANDARD /4a?  I have tried two, and one had audio but no video, the other one left strange relics all over the screen while in the XB programming environment... The first I mentioned was an older screen, and I guessed that the RCA input may have been bad.  The other was a very new one.  Input?

Firebrandmusic.net

---

From: Tony Knerr <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 18:52:09 -0400

> available may open up options.
You are correct, getting them here is the problem. And it's my understanding
that the Scart connection is starting to disappear. There is, however, a
Samsung model released in the US with that connection (and maybe a few
more I haven't found). It's the Model 910MP.  There's also a good 'ole 
17" lcd
monitor that scans down to 15khz through the vga port, it's a CTX PV710M.
Can't seem to find either one available right now, though. But I look 
every day. :)

> _.

It was finding this video of a guy installing a Neobitz board on his 
Amiga that
got me started on this quest, so I have been checking out what "the 
other guys"
are doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDP8cvIXtFY

I look forward to checking out the nfg site, thanks for the tip.

Tony

---

From: tursi <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:57:46 -0700 (PDT)

> Is there any reason a regular 10" flat screen with RCA inputs would NOT work
> with a STANDARD /4a?  I have tried two, and one had audio but no video, the
> other one left strange relics all over the screen while in the XB
> programming environment... The first I mentioned was an older screen, and I
> guessed that the RCA input may have been bad.  The other was a very new one.
>  Input?

Unfortunately, even our simple 99/4A's video signal is becoming obsolete.

The simple (and mostly wrong) answer is that the 9918A VDP outputs a 240p 
video signal, and some modern chipsets don't support 240p - they want 480i 
from older devices (which is what the true format was).

Before deciding that, make sure the video input works by using a VCR or a 
DVD player (which will do 480i). If that works and the TI doesn't, you are 
probably out of luck with that combination. Unless you put something in 
the middle to regenerate the signal, that is.

I had two projectors that wouldn't sync to it either.. and this went for 
most of my classic systems, not just the TI. This is another reason why 
the F18 project is important.

---

From: "Tony Knerr" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 23:05:04 -0000

--- In [email-masked], tursi <yahoogroup@...> wrote:
...
> the F18 project is important.

... and an equally important project would be an F38. But not everyone
sees all things equally. :(

Tony

---

From: tursi <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:11:55 -0700 (PDT)

> sees all things equally. :(

Hey, you've at least had a clear picture for 25 years - let the rest of us 
catch up to you, then we'll see what we can do from there. :)

I do think a scan-doubler is the best bet.. it somewhat baffles me that 
the ones out there are all either super expensive, or super crap. I think 
that building a line-based one might be a simpler project than recreating 
the whole 9938, and it could be applied to the output. Done with decent 
analog converters, it should not lose much quality - I would imagine 
that's the difference today between the expensive and cheap ones. Of 
course, we can use the datasheet to tune this converter to work optimally 
on the 9938, rather than being a generic device for all video.

Just an idea. I wanted to do something like this for the 9918 before 
Matthew started his project. :)

---

From: Owen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:31:31 -0400

Okay--- question... What would cause the "left-over junk" on the other screen?  It looked like ghosts from previous lines... Really bizarre stuff.

Firebrandmusic.net

---

From: tursi <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:43:16 -0700 (PDT)

> Okay--- question... What would cause the "left-over junk" on the other
> screen?  It looked like ghosts from previous lines... Really bizarre stuff.

Nothing I can immediately think of (assuming that the console is 
definately ok), but it's wide open.

The thing you have to remember, all LCD displays work by digitizing the 
input video signal, then displaying the result. If they can't read the 
video signal correctly, there's no way to predict what will happen, 
especially if they can't tell that they aren't reading the signal 
correctly, which is very possible. :)

In a normal NTSC video signal, a single frame of video is created by 
drawing TWO passes over the screen, each one line apart. This is 
"interlaced" video. It was designed for the tube-based display devices, 
which worked simply by drawing lines with light, and the lines faded out 
on their own. Although a television redraw the screen 60 times a second, 
because of the interlacing it actually only provided 30 full frames a 
second. Worse, the signalling that indicates which pass is being drawn is 
really subtle, and partial scanlines are involved.

An LCD panel needs to "de-interlace" this video to display the digital 
picture that it provides, and there are many ways to do this. One way is 
to store each frame at a different offset in a memory buffer, and draw 
that full buffer on the panel.

The TI, and many other systems of the day, didn't bother with the 
alternating interlaced passes, since their resolution was so low anyway. 
Instead, they just redraw the first pass 60 times a second.

On a television, there was no attempt to be smart about the signal, and it 
just did what it was told. Modern devices need to understand the signal in 
order to convert it, though, and some chipsets just get confused by this 
behaviour (some work just fine, too). The more assumptions the designers 
made, the more likely it is to fail. So your left-over bits could be 
caused by the device trying to treat the picture as interlaced, and 
sometimes drawing the wrong pass. But it's pure guesswork on my part. :)

---

From: Owen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:39:20 -0400

Thank you for the detailed response.  :). Now, does anyone know a good 10-12" flatscreen brand that works well with our TI?  I'm thinking of upgrading and downsizing in the near future... Get rid of the NEC and store my PEB... Use a small flat screen and my CF7... (Until the SID comes out, however.  ;))

Firebrandmusic.net

---

From: fdos <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 18:19:50 -0700

It already exists: https://www.tigerdirect.com/cgisec/OrderNumber.asp

Bill S

On 3/16/2011 4:05 PM, Tony Knerr wrote:
> --- In [email-masked], tursi<yahoogroup@...>  wrote:
> ...

-- 
Bill R Sullivan (FDOS)
Go Forth+ or X4th99

---

From: mark wills <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 09:53:39 +0000 (GMT)

Just about every LCD TV here in the UK has RGB inputs - either as 'phono' type 
connectors, or built into the SCART socket. RGB is included in the SCART 
standard. Pin-out here:

The first-generation LCD TVs here also came with YUV inputs, but you see that 
less and less now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCART

Mark

----- Original Message ----
> From: tursi <[email-masked]>
> Sent: Wed, 16 March, 2011 22:22:08
ok,
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups  Links
> 
> 
> 
>

---

From: mark wills <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:03:55 +0000 (GMT)

For what it's worth, Tony, the prospect of a '38 INSIDE our TI's, offering 192K 
Of VRAM, hardware smooth scrolling, hardware line drawing and block blitting is 
VERY attractive to me!

Oh, and 80 column mode too...!

----- Original Message ----
> Sent: Wed, 16 March, 2011 23:05:04

---

From: mark wills <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:05:58 +0000 (GMT)

Aliasing artefacts, at a guess. These are digital (sampling) devices...

>
>From: Owen <[email-masked]>
>To: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
>Sent: Wed, 16 March, 2011 23:31:31
>Okay--- question... What would cause the "left-over junk" on the other screen? 
> It looked like ghosts from previous lines... Really bizarre stuff.
>
>
>
>
>
>Firebrandmusic.net
>
>
>

---

From: fdos <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 08:01:17 -0700

My apologies!  I obviously grabbed the wrong link.

Try this one: http://sblive.narod.ru/ZX-Spectrum/V9938/V9938.htm

Bill S

-- 
Bill R Sullivan (FDOS)
Go Forth+ or X4th99

---

From: Tony Knerr <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 19:19:10 -0400

I've made some progress in getting a newer monitor for my Geneve. I 
found a Samsung 910mp
on ebay and was able to get it for $35 + $20 shipping. Not bad 
considering it might not work.
The tough part was finding an scart plug to use with it, maybe they're 
falling out of the sky in
Europe, but they just don't exist in the US. I finally found some Scart 
cables on ebay that I was
able to cut the plug off of to make a cable. There was a learning curve 
involved, as several pins
require a voltage applied to "turn on" the socket and set the correct 
input and aspect ratio.
Pin 8 requires 12v and pin 16 requires 1v to 3v for everything to work 
properly. Fortunately,
the Geneve has 12v on its a/v socket that connected to pin 8, and a 330 
ohm resistor from pin
8 to pin 16 gave that pin the correct voltage. So with all those 
connections in place it worked, but
the sync was not right as the picture was a little shaky. Adding an 
LM1881 to the sync line
straightened that out and the picture was quite acceptable but looked 
overdriven. A 68ohm resistor
on each of the RGB lines helped a lot. I ended up putting all the extra 
parts in a small project box inline
on the cable and it worked out quite well. Some photos are attached 
showing the results, sorry if
they're a little blurry, but the views in person are quite clear and 
acceptable.

If anyone needs more details to pursue this for themselves, let me know. 
As funds allow, I'll
probably connect one of these to my TI99/4P also.

Tony